Changer Tuning Nuts on all Pull Guitars - Tune once and forget or tweak every time you play?

[Simon Andrews]

Like the title says.

Just curious...

Wondering if on a pro level model guitar, that is set up to factory spec, if once the changer pulls are in tune using the Nylon nuts, or whatever equivalent is there, that the changes will remain in tune, without any further tweaks based on the mechanics of the steel. (after string stretch etc.)

I end up tweaking mine all the time, I find... Not just on a new set of strings. My routine was to tune everything before I played the guitar every time I sat down. I find my Sierra needs it more than my MSA? Over time I have just left the changer nuts alone on the MSA for the most part unless some changes have gone out.

Wondering on your experience? I ask because I came across an Emmons push pull video on Facebook and he said, all the changes are in tune. Almost like once they are in tune with that gauge of strings there will be no drift as long as the open strings are in tune - not my experience. Is this a push pull thing vs an all pull thing?

Is retuning the changer tuning pulls often a symptom of something up in the drivetrain?

Thanks All!

[Richard Sinkler]

Tune every time. As strings get older and stretched, the tuning can drift.

[Dennis Montgomery]

Before my Mullen G2, I had a mid 80's MCI SD10 for a few months and it was tune and tweak before every practice session. Once I got my G2, it's been tune once and forget (or at least forget unless it's been a few weeks since my last playing session - and even then the tweaks are minimal). Same with the Fender 400 I owned for a few years, tune once and forget

[Nathan Pocock]

Nah I just tune the peghead. If I was playing out I’d check it but for practicing I just tune up the heads and go, and if something sounds out I will take a look at it. My guitars seem pretty stable.

[Dave Grafe]

A good guitar with good strings should not require much fussing with the changer end unless there is a change of strings or season. I do a fine tuning before or even during a recording session, but for live shows my poor bar technique is of more concern than any tuning drift in the guitar so I generally tune at the headstock and we're good to go.

[Oliver Samland]

Simon, another thing to consider is some steels are more sensitive to temperature changes then others. If my Excel (being made out of aluminum for the most part) was exposed to lower temperature (like in a non-heated music room during nighttime, or sitting in the trunk of a car on the way to a rehearsal or gig in winter), my routine is to first let it acclimate after coming in from the cold and - most important - playing it for a couple minutes BEFORE tuning it. The warmth of my body usually stabilizes the tuning and as a result more often than not tuning the open strings is all the guitar needs. Whenever I tuned the changer while the steel was still too cold, I went (nylon) nuts chasing the tail, because what I really did was detune a guitar that was just not sufficiently acclimated.

[Dave Grafe]

Oliver makes a very good point, temperature changes can mess with tuning, although not so much with pedal and lever changes as the overall tuning. My Zums have always drifted a bit with temperature change but have stayed in tune with themselves much better than the push-pull guitars I have owned.

[Bobby D. Jones]

Guitar should first get to the surrounding area Temperature.
When setting down at the guitar, Rub the bar and hand up and down strings, Place your right hand playing position the strings. While moving bar hand and warming strings, Push every pedal, Engage every knee lever, Two or three times. Then turn tuner on and check tuning.

Strings have a happy neutral zone, When strings are warmed up, Strings raised and lowered recently, They are in the neutral zone, The neutral zone/Open strings on the guitar.

If the strings are not in the neutral position. And they are tuned. After a few minutes of playing, Warming of string, Raising and lowering strings, The strings reach neutral position. And then the guitar is out of tune. And have to be tuned again.
Temperature, Heat and flexing can have a lot of effect on a 24" small diameter steel string. Then the guitar becomes part of stable tuning.

[David Wisson]

Hi Simon I adjust the nylon nuts very rarely. My guitar is permanently set up in the music room. I
always like it to be in tune. I have a korg flip style chromatic tuner that comes out once a year. Tweak anything else by ear. As regards an Emmons push pull they tend to drift as the changer adjuster screws and Ali wear. I used tiny lock nuts on mine held them with long nose pliers when adjusting. Worked well. Dave

[Bobby Hearn]

On my pushpulls, I rarely have to tweek changer once the strings are broke in, but every all pull I’ve ever owned had to be adjusted regularly. The upside with all pulls is there are fewer problems requiring undercarriage adjustments.

[David Wren]

My tip to folks new to PSG, when the pedal/knee levers start to sound out, or look out on the tuners.... first put on new strings, then after the new strings are in tune open, check the mechanical adjustments.... much better than keeping old strings, and making adjustment as they age.... mainly cause then ALL of your mechanical adjustments will be out.

Also, new strings sound better, and will avoid breakage during a gig

The above tips about temperature changes are right on.... when recording I check my open tunings between each take, as the room warms up, the string pitches will go down.

Glad to see new players!

[Dave Grafe]

What David just said. At a certain point old strings are no longer physically consistent enough to be in tune with their own harmonics, and before our modern sweetening schemes and handheld tuners that was always my clue that it was time to change strings.

In addition to deterioration from temperature, friction, hand oils and moisture, as strings stretch they develop microscopic cracks and points of stress that grow until its mass is no longer consistent along its length. Any grit or corrosion from sweaty hands and wrists will accelerate this process, making those parts of the strings heavier than the rest. Thus the harmonics at frets 12 and 5 will be out of tune with each other, as will those at frets 7 and 19. This tends to be more noticeable on the solid strings but can make a crazy mess of tuning lowers on E9 string 6 or C6 string 10

[Chris Templeton]

Tne temperature change factor is HUGE! Especially going to a gig iwhen it's cold, or having to leave the guitar in a car/van/ bus overnight.

[Larry Dering]

The temperature changes and humidity play a large roll as stated. I like to have my steel setup early and I carry a microfiber cloth and briskly rub the strings up and down the neck to warm them before tweaking the tuning.

[Lee Baucum]

Dittos to what Bobby D. Jones posted.

I keep one of my guitars set up at home, all the time. It stays in tune while it's set up there. No tweaking ever required.
Good A/C system, temp and humidity is always about the same.

Then, I can pack that same guitar into its case, load it in the car, drive about 10 minutes to where we rehearse, carry it in, set it up...and every string is sharp. I can rub the palms of my hands across the strings a few times and get the pitches back down...closer to being in tune. During the first few songs we run through, I have to use my ears and move the bar back to the left a bit...the pitches are still a little sharp. Some strings are sharper than others. I have to work pretty hard to play in tune with the band members. After a few songs everything is pretty much back in tune.

I wonder what happens to the tuning of the strings by just picking up the guitar, walking across the room, turning it upside down and setting it down in the case. Then what happens when you assemble the guitar, pick it up, turn it over, set it down, pick it up by the end plates, and walk with it to where you then set it back down on its feet. What about picking it up with your fingers under the front and rear aprons, instead of the end plates?

[Dave Mudgett]

I don't think it's "normal" for a well-built, modern, properly set up pedal steel to need constant re-tuning/re-wrenching to stay reasonably in-tune. Sure, there may be slight tweaking owing to many factors. But as long as the guitars I play out (typically Zum and Mullen) are set up properly in the first place, they require only very minimal tweaking from gig-to-gig, week-to-week. When I change strings, I typically have to make some adjustments, but they are minor if I use the same string gauges/brand.

I find my Sierra needs it more than my MSA? Over time I have just left the changer nuts alone on the MSA for the most part unless some changes have gone out.

Which era/model of Sierras are you talking about? I had a couple of '80s Sierras (you can see the S10 in my avatar), and the frames/bodies were solid metal - I'm pretty sure aluminum. Tuning on these was indeed more sensitive to temperature than other guitars I have owned - including Zum, Mullen, Franklin, Emmons, MSA, and others. I often had tuning issues with Sho Buds, but I think that was more about the changer, old mechanics, and so on.

But beyond that, you need to make sure that the roller nut is moving freely (lubricate it) and doesn't have burrs or gouges, the changer fingers aren't getting hung up and are properly returning to pitch, that you have a reasonably straight string-pull from your tuners to the roller nuts, and so on.

To isolate the issue to temp changes, you need to get the guitar in a stable environment and let it acclimate. Ideally, take the strings off, check and lubricate the roller nut and changer, and then install new stings of the same gauges, make sure you have adequate travel for your pulls so you're not over-tuning the guitar (see Jon Light's thread at the top of the Pedal Steel page). Tune the guitar, stretch the strings a bit and set the pulls where they should be. Once the guitar is set up, leave it in that stable environment, play it long enough for the strings to settle in. Then leave it there for a day or two in that stable environment and see if the tuning is stable. If it isn't, there's probably something else going on. If it is, now put it into a colder environment, let it sit awhile, and without touching anything, see where it is.

If the issue is really temperature sensitivity, you really need to allow the guitar to acclimate to the new temperature before adjusting the tuning. If you don't wait, then you'll wind up making changes that you'll have to undo when it does acclimate. I had to learn this the hard way. It is kind of a PITA because my guitars are all set up and stored in a very stable environment. I frequently have to deal with serious temp changes at gigs, cold and hot, and I don't always have time to let things equilibrate before the gig starts. Rubbing the strings helps some, but if I'm pulling a guitar out of a 10 degF or 95 degF car trunk or van into a 65-70 degF room, it just takes time for the guitar to equilibrate.

I know some people say Emmons push-pulls stay in tune better once they're set up correctly. That is not my experience. My Zums and Mullen in particular stay in tune better than any push-pull I've owned, and I've had several. A couple of the push-pulls were set up by very well-known and excellent techs, they were very good guitars, and they stayed in-tune well. But I really believe that if a good, modern all-pull guitar is set up well, then tuning stability at least rivals the best push-pulls I've played.